Sunday, June 29, 2008

Holey arguments from Theists

On Saturday, 28 June 2008, CASE operatives alleged to Operation 513 members that Operation 513 was merely seeking to enforce their moral code over society by using fear of Hell.

Operation 513 leader, Josh Williamson (referred to herein as "His holeyness"), stated that "you don't need to do anything to get into Heaven". Particularly, he noted that there is no price to getting into Heaven.

CASE operative Alex Stewart immediately stated that there is no need for his preaching as members of the public would be going to heaven for doing nothing.

His holeyness then departed from his previous statement saying that you needed to "repent".

Accordingly, Alex Stewart said "I repent" and asked if he was now going to heaven.

His holeyness departed from his previous position again and said that you had to believe in God.

Although not an actual believer in God, Alex Stewart said "Ok - I believe in God, now am I going to Heaven?" for the sake of argument.

His holeyness departed from his previous position again and said that you had to live by christian laws.

What was this - His holeyness had previously stated that you need do nothing to get into Heaven and now there was christian laws. Could it be that his holeyness had misrepresented himself, even lied???

His holeyness argued that God chose whether to "grant mercy on you" and let you into heaven.

CASE notes that this argument is a little odd given that Operation 513 is repeatedly saying that God caused the universe and everything that flows from there is a result of God's initial work. Accordingly, any individual's decision follow God in an individual is the result of God's initial work. But that means, God chooses who is going to heaven or hell without any act by any individual other than God.

Some would say that Free Will would intervene, but when asked - his holeyness stated that there is "no such thing as free will".

Does anyone else out there see how deluded this standpoint is? Through a simple logical progression CASE established that Operation 513 is fraudulently using God, Jesus and the fear of hell to establish their own moral code over society. They change their arguments and they lie solely to bring poor gullible individuals into their flock. It is a disgrace and immoral.

His holeyness deserves the title - his beliefs truly are holey.

But if you want to know why his holeyness is so opposed to evolution (for Op513 members that havent figured it out):-

Christianity has fought, still fights, and will continue to fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the Son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing.

G. Richard Bozarth, ‘The Meaning of Evolution’, American Atheist, p. 30. 20 September 1979. (/hattip Sydney Anglican Heretics)

12 comments:

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Yes it really doesn't take too much to unravel their argument - once you actually can get them to shut up.

Josh Williamson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Josh Williamson said...

Sorry, found a misquote, had to fix it. Now it looks like you are getting lots of comments! ;)

Josh Williamson said...

Alex, Alex, Alex, why do you make things up as you go along? You and I discussed what I said, and you were called out in front of everyone on how you were not letting me finish my statements and also how you twisted the words I said to suit your presuppositions on what you believe Christianity actually teaches.

CASE's quotes will be in [ ]

[Operation 513 leader, Josh Williamson (referred to herein as "His holeyness"), stated that "you don't need to do anything to get into Heaven". Particularly, he noted that there is no price to getting into Heaven.]

There is nothing we can do as human beings to earn our way to heaven. As we have all sinned against God, and God cannot allow sinful beings into heaven. Because God is just He must punish all lawbreakers. So because we have all broken God's law we all deserve to go to hell. Nothing we can do can ever earn our way to heaven. It is only by God's grace (kindness) that we can ever be forgiven.

The Bible says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)

and

"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior" - Titus 3:4-6

The Bible clearly teaches that one cannot do anything to get to Heaven. Which is something you seemed to miss, as you repeatedly made the claim "You must keep the Christian moral laws to be saved". Which is something I reject as does any true Christian.

[CASE operative Alex Stewart immediately stated that there is no need for his preaching as members of the public would be going to heaven for doing nothing.]

You are building an argument from a faulty premise. You have interpreted "Nothing we can get us to heaven" as "you don't have to do anything to get to heaven."

So realistically your argument is flawed, as you are misrepresenting what I said.

[His holeyness then departed from his previous statement saying that you needed to "repent".]

Really Alex, is ad hominem attack really necessary? It does little to advance your cause, but shows a lack of substantial evidence on your behalf.

Once again you missed what I said, in ourselves we can do NOTHING to earn our way to Heaven. We now enter into a theological frame work known as "Reformed Theology", which indicates that repentance is not something that comes from us, but rather it is a gift of God.

The Bible says: "...God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth," - 2 Timothy 2:25

The Scripture indicates that repentance must come from God, so for me saying "You must repent" (As Jesus also commanded people to do), is consistent with the Scripture as a whole. Since that ability to repent only comes from God, and not something we can do on our own strength.

[Accordingly, Alex Stewart said "I repent" and asked if he was now going to heaven.

His holeyness departed from his previous position again and said that you had to believe in God.

Although not an actual believer in God, Alex Stewart said "Ok - I believe in God, now am I going to Heaven?" for the sake of argument.]

Repentance is a gift of God (as illustrated above) and faith (belief) in God is also a gift that comes from Him. Before anyone can repent and have faith in God it must be given by God.

Philippians 1:29 indicates belief (Greek also translates as "faith, trust") is something that God must grant. So once again it is consistent for me to say that you must repent (turn from sins) and trust (believe) in Christ for your salvation.

The reason I asked if you believe in God is for the very reason I know you, and I know you profess not the believe in God.

The Bible says: "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." - Hebrews 11:6

[His holeyness departed from his previous position again and said that you had to live by christian laws.]

Never said that! I preach that we can't earn our way to heaven by keeping the law. Since we have all broken the commandments of God by doing things like: lying, stealing, lusting, hating etc. Thus we are all guilty.

You were to one that kept saying "Christians teach you must keep the law to be saved" which goes against the Bible.

[Could it be that his holeyness had misrepresented himself, even lied???]

No I didn't lie. You just misrepresented everything I said, and built a foundation upon a faulty premise.

[His holeyness argued that God chose whether to "grant mercy on you" and let you into heaven.]

That is the doctrine of unconditional election, clearly taught in passages like John 1:12-13, and Ephesians 1:3-6.

[God chooses who is going to heaven or hell without any act by any individual other than God.]

That is correct, Romans 9 indicates this. God makes the choice on who will be saved, and who will be damned. It is called the Sovereignty of God. God can do whatever He wants with His creation (Which is something you agreed to if God exists).

[Some would say that Free Will would intervene, but when asked - his holeyness stated that there is "no such thing as free will".]

No where in Scripture is the doctrine of free will taught. People often think that we have a 'free will' choice to chose God. Yet the Bible says many times over "no one seeks God". So since we are not seeking God, how can we chose Him?

Also, the Bible describes in Ephesians 2:1, that we are dead in sin and trespass. Last time I checked, a dead body couldn't do anything, and it is the same with us. Spiritually we are dead in sin, and it takes God to come alongside us and give us life. This once again is the doctrine of election.

Alex, I did agree that man has a "free agency" that is, we can chose what sin we commit, for instance you may chose not to believe in God, lie, lust, blaspheme etc. Whereas someone else may chose to be a murderer.

You can chose your 'poison' but you can't chose the Saviour, He must choose you!

Now you have in writing Alex what I really said, and you can reference that for future arguments if you really wish. All I ask is in future on the streets, let someone finish their arguments before your presuppositions kick in and you run off on a tangent.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Christ! Reading that made my eyes bleed.

Josh if there is nothing we can do to get us into heaven, no action why are you necessary? And leave out the bible quotes they don't advance your case.

CASE - now with holiness said...

Again, Josh - you haven't addressed the whole point that I set up (even though you disagree with my setup you get to the same point amazingly), that is:-

Accordingly, any individual's decision follow God in an individual is the result of God's initial work. But that means, God chooses who is going to heaven or hell without any act by any individual other than God.

Are you saying that according to your beliefs God, willingly, allows you to come into existence with the foreknowledge that you are going to Hell?

If so, then do you agree that God does not treat people equally, is not omnibenevolent and is actually cruel? Even if such a God existed (to which I deny [note: CYA was the purpose of this post but Im glad you understand that]) the I would not follow him, solely for the reason that he is immoral.

Josh Williamson said...

Josh if there is nothing we can do to get us into heaven, no action why are you necessary?

A Christian preacher cannot get you to Heaven. Nothing I can ever say will ever convince you to repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Only God can change you. God doesn't need a preacher, yet He chooses to use preaching.

The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 1:21 that God has chosen preaching to be the way that He saves His people. He doesn't need us, yet, He chooses to use us. All so that He may get the glory that He deserves.

Josh Williamson said...

Are you saying that according to your beliefs God, willingly, allows you to come into existence with the foreknowledge that you are going to Hell?

Yes, God doesn't just have foreknowledge that a person is going to hell. But rather He has made them for hell so that He would be glorified for being a just God. We may not like it, but God can do whatever He wants, since He is God. (Again you agree with that statement on the streets).

The Bible clearly teaches this doctrine in Romans 9

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Josh,

Oyvey! That is one piece of fucked up and convoluted scripture. Mind you he was preaching to a largely illiterate audience and gaining recruits amoung the plebs.

"Yep you don't need wisdom of knowledge, god is happy with our foolish arguments( and I'd be happy if you were too)for conversion."

Not much has changed in the last 2000 years hey. Ignore reason and logic - just believe.

Josh Williamson said...

Sean, more than happy to engage in logically and reasonable discussion. And in the weeks coming we will be demonstrating on our blog how belief in God is logically consistent.

I love reason, and I love logic. Would also love to see Atheists provide reason, and logic to why they are right, but so far no one has presented anything.

CASE - now with holiness said...

I know this is a comedy website - but I didnt expect to be the one laughing.

And in the weeks coming we will be demonstrating on our blog how belief in God is logically consistent.

I hope you have better luck with your next posts.

Josh Williamson said...

We look forward to your input Alex!